Building Language-Rich Classrooms with Patty McGee

0:01 SPEAKER_00: All right, everyone. Welcome back to the role to an effective classroom environment. I am your host, Dr. LaCanta, also known as the Classy Factory Consultant. We are going to dive into the practices, mindsets, and stories that help educators create thriving spaces for teaching and learning. Today we will truly have a special guest joining us as Patty McGee, a nationally recognized legacy consultant, speaker, educator, and co-author of the powerful book, Not Your Granny's Grammar. Patty is known for transforming classrooms into vibrant spaces where language, creativity, and joyful learning flourish.

0:47 SPEAKER_00: Get ready for an inspiring conversation full of practical insights, innovative strategies, and art-centered wisdom that will elevate your literacy practice and energize your classroom. Let's jump in. Welcome, Patty. Thank you for being a guest this morning. How are you doing today?

1:07 SPEAKER_01: I'm doing well, and I'm grateful to be here.

1:11 SPEAKER_00: Awesome. Tell us a little bit about yourself before we get into the questions surrounding the book and just those strategies that you have as suggestions for our educators out there. Tell us a little bit about who you are, who is Patty. Sure.

1:29 SPEAKER_01: I call myself a traveling teacher. Let's start with that. This is what I currently am because I visit schools and districts all over the country. And while I'm there, my job is to make teachers' jobs just a little bit easier. And sometimes, as part of that, I'm also teaching in classrooms. So that's the name traveling teacher. That definition, by the way, came from a second grader that I overheard when I was walking out of a school. And I said, I'm taking that. Before this, I worked regionally in my little I don't know, area of New Jersey.

2:10 SPEAKER_01: It's just so tiny, nobody ever comes here, but we're not far from New York City. Um, and I worked regionally as a staff developer, school librarian before that, and uh as a classroom teacher in the town that I grew up in, which meant that my first grade teacher was actually my principal when I first started teaching. So yeah, it was it was really special. Yeah. She gave me um a picture of myself when I was in her class. She was a very progressive teacher because this was the 70s. She had a classroom library and a couch, and she had a picture of me sitting on the couch reading.

2:52 SPEAKER_01: So it's been something that's been literacy, I guess, that's been a love from the start.

2:59 SPEAKER_00: Awesome. Well, that's look, I fell in love with um just knowing about you in our first conversation. So I'm glad that the listeners get a chance to hear just a little bit about you. Thank you. So tell me, what inspired your classroom, what inspired your passion for literacy and empowered you to begin transforming classrooms across the country?

3:23 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a decades-long story, really. Uh it started in my own classroom when I was teaching fourth grade. And because I was a strong reader, I don't know if I describe myself as a strong writer, but I definitely have always been really a reader at heart. You know, when it's something that you're very good at, it's actually really hard to teach. And it's like you don't know what you do when you're figuring out the tricky parts or when you're stuck on something. And so I started really looking at different approaches to teaching literacy, both reading and writing.

4:07 SPEAKER_01: Um, so for reading, it was more about like what should what can I be teaching and how do I teach it so that it's really effective. Um, because we were still in like the basil workbook kind of experience, and I knew that wasn't working for everybody in my class, both for the kids that would struggle with the text, um, and for the kids that were like, this text is just so beyond below what my interest is or what my ability is of what I could be reading. And then at the same time, I'm not sure about you, but I did not learn how to teach writing in teacher school.

4:47 SPEAKER_01: And then when I was growing up, yeah, when I was growing up, everything was a sign and assess, or I've also heard a sign and autopsy, so that there really wasn't a way for me to figure out how to do things differently and better the next time, unless, and I was a relatively good student, unless I looked at every correction and thought to myself, how can I make sure I don't make this mistake the next time? And if I'm not sure how to not make that mistake the next time, then I need to consult somebody, usually the teacher, so they can show me what not to do the next time.

5:30 SPEAKER_01: That doesn't happen. You know, even the most dedicated students don't think that way. They they look at the corrections and they say and they recopy them. And that's like saying to a new student of math, four plus four equals nine, they might write down and we correct it and say eight, and they recopy it, four plus four equals eight. They just recopying, they're not understanding the you know, the whole concept behind adding two numbers together. And so that's basically what correction has been for oh gosh, I've done a deep dive into history back, back, back into like the 18 mid to late 1800s, and it's just something that wasn't working, and so that sent me down also another kind of self-study of what can I do with writing that's effective, that moves beyond correction and into something more meaningful for students.

6:35 SPEAKER_00: Okay, awesome. I I want to go back to something you um you had said about um writing and not really uh being taught how to write. There was no um school uh when we went to college and we were you know getting our degrees, there wasn't a a class that taught you how to write. But there are now you see all of these different writing workshops all over the place. Do you do writing workshops to help um teachers?

7:07 SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do, and I have refined my teaching of writing immensely over the past number of years, and that is what I really love to not only give workshops on, but go into schools and and create a perhaps a series of learning experiences for teachers, which include rethinking uh the old way of teaching writing and having like a mind shift into a new way of approaching uh the way we think about writing instruction, really starting with the writer becoming a stronger writer, um, and then with demo to be able to see what that can look like and how simple and effective it can be.

8:00 SPEAKER_01: And so, yes, workshops, but even more effective is like yes, workshops with demo, workshops in front of um teachers with students, you know, right there. And those are the more effective practices I found, especially when teachers are open enough to give it a whirl right then after I've demoed it. It just is like a quick opportunity for transfer and practice for teachers. So I do give workshops and I love that because we come together as an educational community and study something together. But I find, and research, as you know, has found that just a one-shot workshop doesn't always work unless you're a really self-starter who is like, no, this is ringing true to me, and I'm going to like dive deep into this for a long time and seek out feedback and experts.

8:55 SPEAKER_01: So I prefer the longevity of um a stay within a district for a little while.

9:03 SPEAKER_00: Okay, and that makes a lot of sense because as you said, those one stop, just one workshop is not enough. You want to, you know, have more depth and continue that that process to see the growth take place. So can you share a pivotal moment in your career that shaped your approach to literacy instruction? I've I think I've heard a couple maybe in in just that first question, but is there um a pivotal moment you want to share?

9:31 SPEAKER_01: Yes, and it's one that's so near and dear to my heart. Uh I discovered pretty early on that if my instruction in a classroom isn't working, a really good place to look for effective instructional practices is outside of school. Like, where do I see learning and teaching happening that isn't necessarily about a particular school subject? So I had the blessing of watching my father learn how to crochet. And he started, goodness, I must have been in my teens. And my aunt, his sister-in-law, was a master crocheter.

10:16 SPEAKER_01: She doesn't even quite remember when she learned to crochet. And as he was learning, and it took quite a long time, we might call him a striving crochet. Um, my aunt would come and sit next to him with her own crocheting projects, her little basket of things, and he would show her what he had so far. And the big thing that she did here was she wasn't thinking about uh, how are we going to make this blanket perfect? She was thinking about how can I help Peter become a stronger crochet today? What is the one small thing I can do to help strengthen his skill as a crocheter?

11:00 SPEAKER_01: And even though my father would usually be self-deprecating about, oh, look, this is in the shape of New Jersey, um, this blanket, she would always point out, yeah, but look at right here, look at the stitching right here. This stitching, uh, you must have been counting or something like that. And then she would pick one thing. She might say, Let's just square off one edge today. Let me show you how to do that. And then she would take her own crocheting materials and show how to square off an edge and then coach my father as he tried it.

11:34 SPEAKER_01: But she wasn't there a hundred percent of the time. So he had lots of practice in between the visits. So that was a pivotal turning point for me because she wasn't a teacher, a professional teacher. She was a homemaker and quite an incredible crocheter, but she knew instinctually to look at my dad first. Like, what are the skills he has, almost has, and eventually will have, and decide to focus just on one thing after naming something that's strong. And so when I witnessed that and I really started to think about it, I was like, that's that's what I can do with writing.

12:16 SPEAKER_01: I am not going to be looking for a perfect piece, even though culturally in education, we believe we're supposed to have a perfect piece at the end. Um, that's not necessarily helping the writer grow to be a stronger writer, looking at their skills and looking at what they can do, almost do, and not yet do, and use that information to teach. If we can let go of the pursuit of perfection with every piece that students write, we're going to see more growth and more rapid growth and more engagement in writing when we take away that expectation.

12:55 SPEAKER_01: And that if I could say more about that, that expectation is completely unrealistic. Um, so my book that you mentioned that I that just came out, it's called Not Your Granny's Grammar. And I wrote it with Tim Donahue, who is an assistant superintendent of a nearby school and knows more about grammar than anybody I've ever known, and can explain it in a way that is like, oh, that's what I was supposed to know. And he is just brilliant. He comes like literally from a lineage of grammarians, and he went through our book um multiple times to look for anything that needed some grammatical fixing or clarification, anything like that.

13:39 SPEAKER_01: So here we are, you know, full-grown adults with a book, he went through it multiple times, and there were still significant edits that came from our copy editor. So we need to let go of the myth that student writing needs to be perfect because there is no such thing. And if that's not a very strong example of even the strongest of grammarians still will not find quote unquote perfection in their writing. But instead, if we look at student writing the way we look at student art, that we're going to see their age on the page, we're going to see and admire what they're able to do and delight in their attempts at other things.

14:29 SPEAKER_01: Um, that kind of stance really shifts the way that I was teaching writing, but then also the way that my students approached writing.

14:43 SPEAKER_00: And since you've mentioned the book, um as a writer myself, um I totally agree with you in saying that there, even as adults, we go through edits, and so we have to remove that expectation of our students that when they're turning in writing, that it's going to be perfect because it's not. If we are showing that they have growth in their writing and we're able to get them from one point to the next and involve them as a writer, that's what's important. So I I really appreciate you uh making that comment because I I agree with it totally when it comes to um the student writing piece.

15:21 SPEAKER_00: But since you've mentioned your book, um, let's let's talk a little bit about it. What are some misconceptions uh do you think that educators often have about grammar instruction and how does your book address them?

15:35 SPEAKER_01: So I think I'll start with just the practices that have been in place for a very long time. And that is identification as the first thing, um, memorization of different parts of speech, and completion of worksheets. And then finally, an expectation that when we were able to identify, memorize, or complete a worksheet, that there is an immediate expectation of perfect usage in writing. It's like the only subject that I can think of that doesn't give any space and room to really grapple with, um, experiment with and develop an understanding.

16:25 SPEAKER_01: There's just this instantaneous expectation. I taught it, quote unquote. Why can't they do it? Well, because we're not using the same methods that we're using in other areas that when we see high engagement, it's probably not that low-level experience of identification, not to say it's not, you know, identification is hard, but it's very low on the DOK, you know, expectations. So um just really thinking about what kinds of experiences we can offer students that can reshape that approach to grammar instruction.

17:05 SPEAKER_01: And I want to say that there are a small percentage of people who learned grammar that way. So I'm not completely dismissing it, but I can tell you the vast majority of people did not learn it that way. I've done a little bit of my own informal research, and I've been able to speak to about a hundred teachers from all over the country. And the number one thing that is a concern for teachers when they teach grammar is that they don't understand grammar themselves. And that is understandably something that prevents them then from actually engaging in grammar instruction.

17:43 SPEAKER_01: And so another myth is that we have to know grammar inside and out in order to teach it, and that is not true either. We have lots of different um experiences in this book that help us revise and refresh uh that approach to memorization and then instant usage.

18:09 SPEAKER_00: All right. So also um just tell me a little bit about how teachers can use the ideas from your book to make grammar instruction more relevant and engaging for today's learning.

18:23 SPEAKER_01: You bet. So a little back history here, like I was saying earlier about looking outside of school for the things that happen when someone is learning something. Um, I thought about well, what's something that I have personally been learning? And one of the things that I love to do is I found this special type of paint, chalk paint, and these waxes that go with it. And I really got into it for finishing furniture, um, for refinishing, gosh, it can be on pretty much every surface. And it's really quite a fun experience.

19:04 SPEAKER_01: So I first got very curious like, how can I use these paints um with this particular piece of furniture that I have? And then I would hypothesize, I think these colors might go together with this wax. I'd seek feedback from an expert and also ask that expert to show me what that might look like. And I would then experiment and play before I actually put it on the piece of furniture so that I really could see that my techniques were working in a way that I wanted it to. Um, and then after that, I would pause and reflect: is this working?

19:47 SPEAKER_01: What have I learned here? What am I going to do differently? Because the paints are very pliable. You can take them off right away if it's not working. Um, and so I thought to myself, all of those experiences are the things that are missing from grammar instruction. So, yes, I memorized things. I there were um things I identified, obviously, but they were only one very small part of the bigger picture of studying something in particular. So we call our approach grammar study because we're offering students different entry points similar to the ones I just described, where students can get curious about a particular particular grammar concepts, can hypothesize, um, they get feedback, and they are also explicitly taught plenty of time to experiment and play.

20:47 SPEAKER_01: And the play is not our games, there's not like a right or wrong, we just have little manipulatives really that we're using to create some things and see how that's working, and we have time to reflect what do we know now and what are we still curious about? And so doing that in a study so that it is a length of time. And I know anyone listening to this, uh wanting to teach grammar, you're probably thinking, how do I fit this in? Um, I would we recommend 10-minute grammar pockets three to five times a week for about six weeks or so, and to think of those grammar moments as merely grammar exposure or grammar experiences, not for grammar mastery, that it is a cumulative process where it's like snowballing our grammar understanding over time rather than maybe taking all of those 10 minute lessons and doing them in one day and not coming back to it again for another week.

21:57 SPEAKER_01: Um, the little snippets of Time across time creates a more cohesive uh learning experience, but also allows the space between to have like a little think time, um, to have a little break from it and coming back to it. It makes a big difference in learning.

22:19 SPEAKER_00: And so that that makes a lot of sense. Anything that you want to implement in the classroom, you want to make sure that you're consistently doing it. And it doesn't have to be in really big chunks. So that's a great strategy of the 10-minute snippets, because if you're doing that each day, you're exposing the students to that that grammar piece, and so it stays fresh in your mind, and uh definitely can um help them to um to strengthen their skill set.

22:50 SPEAKER_01: Um and also just doing so, I'm sorry if I interrupted you. Just thank you. Doing so in a way that, as I said, we're not expecting mastery. That might be the hardest part because again, in teacher school, we were taught objective by the time that you have the end of the period or whatever it might be, that students are mastering that objective. And we need to just put that to the side for now and maybe forever, because there isn't a set amount of time it takes people to learn something. Everyone is a little bit different.

23:28 SPEAKER_01: But if we know that there's multiple entry points, multiple experiences that we are offering the students, and we're doing so in a very simple way. Like we are not making a whole slide deck of things because that takes us too long and can actually get in the way of learning. Um, this is this approach is very simple without a lot of bling. And because of that, it cuts straight to the chase and it really centers the learner in the learning.

24:01 SPEAKER_00: And that's how we came, we kind of came to know each other was through the uh talking about learning intentions and success criteria, because uh the district that I work in, that has been the push for the past uh eight or nine years now. And I have uh I've I've definitely embraced it because you know, when when I began teaching, you we were teaching objectives as you were talking about, and you had all you had to put the standards up there, these long objectives, and this expectation that this is completed within, you know, that class period, but things have evolved now to where you can be really very specific and making sure that the learning is centered around students.

24:49 SPEAKER_00: Student learning is is it's important. So those simple statements, those I can statements, they break the learning down so it's not one big ball of words that they really don't understand. So um I I appreciate, I see our our connection came from that that moment and just talking um and and listening, um, and you listening to that particular episode on learning intentions and success criteria. So um that that is awesome. So tell us a little bit about um what are some of the biggest barriers that you've seen teachers face when they try to implement meaningful literacy practices and how can they overcome that?

25:40 SPEAKER_00: Just from your experience, uh what are some of some of those barriers?

25:47 SPEAKER_01: One barrier that I have noticed in myself, which I've been working on, and also have noticed uh with the many, many teachers I've been able to work with is that we do a lot of talking. We as educators talk and talk, and as we do this talking, um it's almost masked as if, well, we said it so they must have learned it. And I think a big shift uh that can really make a difference is just looking at the proportion of teacher talk to single student talk to partner or trio talk. So, like really, I want to go heavy on partner and trio talk, um, not necessarily to complete a task, but to build understanding or create theories or to clarify.

26:48 SPEAKER_01: Doesn't have to be anything fancy. Um, but if we look at the amount of talking we're doing and we just do an informal audit and we make sure that the students are doing a great amount of talking, and especially those students who will not be raising their hands, because the ones who raise their hands are we can always expect that, and we can be um almost like relieved when they have something to say. Um, but when we give everyone a chance to talk and uh multiple opportunities to talk in order to build knowledge about any subject area, uh that will be a breakthrough and one of the barriers that tends to be in classrooms.

27:35 SPEAKER_00: And this is something that I talk with teachers about on a regular basis. And and uh in the building that I work in, um I work with um CTE teachers, uh career and technology education, and so our time slot is two hours. And so in two hours, you don't want to talk that entire time. You don't need to talk that entire time, even if the class is 45 minutes or 60 minutes. Really, the time span that you are taught that you as the instructor, you should be talking maybe 15, 20 minutes and rotating into the next segment of the lesson.

28:19 SPEAKER_00: Um, but that all that talk that the educate that the instructor gives, uh it does not should not exceed uh 15, 20 minutes. Um, and it may be in a two-hour segment, maybe 30 minutes, but even that is pushing it when it comes down to the attention span of the students. So I I agree with you there that we as educators, many times we are talking entirely too much. And the fear is if we are allowing the students to talk, that the talking is going to be too much, um, that it's it's gonna be too chaotic.

28:52 SPEAKER_00: But I I love um I call it call it structured chaos. And you can have chaos in a classroom where the kids they're talking about the work, they're talking about the learning, but you as an educator, you have to be able to embrace that. And sometimes some some people are just not comfortable with hearing a lot of noise. And even as a leader, just it took me a while to really be okay with hearing noise because I came through the old school way and you know, quiet classroom, and and that's that's what peace is in a classroom.

29:26 SPEAKER_00: But I had to evolve as a as an educator in order to embrace that student-centered uh classroom environment because that is the direction that that education was going. And so I had to loosen up a little bit and and be a little bit more willing to uh see the teachers in the rooms as the facilitators of learning and also know that the students, if the classroom environment is going the right way, the students are doing more of the talking, they are doing more of the hands-on. And so uh I I understand and I I appreciate that comment as well because I I believe we believe the same things.

30:07 SPEAKER_00: We need to take this on the road, maybe we need to travel together. I like that idea.

30:16 SPEAKER_00: I think that would work.

30:20 SPEAKER_00: We do have a couple of comments, uh, questions in the chat, so I'm gonna go ahead and share that with you. So, those of you that are that are listening to the recording, uh, we have some of um some viewers that are with us live. And so I'm gonna share some of the um questions that are being asked right now of Patty. The first question is what are what are your thoughts on literacy circles and writers' workshops being used to help students connect to the writing and literacy process?

30:52 SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, I think of those two as separate practices that can relate very much to each other and can support each other. A writer's workshop has gotten, well, the word workshop has gotten a pretty bad rap um in recent years with the science of reading movement. And yet Tim Shanahan, who is a great uh vocal proponent of the science of reading, uh really says that with writing, writing workshop is fine, it's just how we're approaching reading. So he's given his kind of a blessing, the way he phrased it.

31:34 SPEAKER_01: Um, but a writing workshop, I think is the best way to teach writing. It is just so natural. It comes to us so naturally, just like I don't know, when I took a watercolor workshop, the teacher would teach us a particular brushstroke. We'd all go off and we'd be painting whatever it was we chose to paint. She would walk around and she would give us tips or pointers about the things we could be doing with our painting. And then we got together at the end and talked about what we did and what we still want to work on.

32:07 SPEAKER_01: Like when we keep workshop, that's simple. But it's going to be effective everywhere. Um, and there's obviously moments where we need to pause and drill down into some skills that will benefit everyone, and that's where like my grammar study comes in. Um, but if we keep it simple like that, it's a very effective approach because it is research-based. Um Stephen Graham, who and Karen Harris, um, who are my favorite in terms of writing and research because they're decades deep and they've just done a recent meta-analysis.

32:44 SPEAKER_01: And they talk about the need for time to write, actual pencil to paper time. That's in writing workshop, um, a writing process, which a writing workshop makes space for a writing process, feedback throughout the process. Without workshop time, we don't have time to give feedback throughout the process. Um, that there's a chance for um students to be able to talk with one another, not edit each other's pieces, but to give verbal feedback about, oh, here's an idea I have for you in this part, or ask a question, this is feeling tricky.

33:20 SPEAKER_01: How do you think I might phrase it? So there's that interaction there that's happening. Um, and there's more that they identify, but those big four are so important and come within a writer's workshop. And let's say we're writing informational texts and we want to do uh some small group study of what we might be writing about. Um that's where literature circles might come in. Uh, lit circles were not he wasn't the person who like invented them, Harvey Daniels, but he is the person who assigned roles as a suggestion for literacy circles.

34:02 SPEAKER_01: Um and he has since come back multiple times to say the roles are actually limiting kids in conversation rather than expanding their understanding of what they're reading. And so if we do lit circles without the jobs, which is often also called book clubs, um, and we still support kids in having deep conversation, one of those supports can be if they're already having deep conversation, we don't say anything. We let them continue. Um, and if they're having trouble, we give, you know, we support a little bit in a way that helps them build their conversation.

34:43 SPEAKER_01: Then the that group reading around a topic, um, it does not have to be about everyone reading the same text. It could be rotating the text throughout the club. Um, and it is a very, again, I go for simplicity. My favorite things in education are things that are simple, powerful, and free. And grouping kids in a book club or lit circle so that they can talk about the things that they're reading and be able to rotate those texts around and add more to their conversation is just a sound practice and highly effective.

35:25 SPEAKER_00: Awesome. Love it. I I love this conversation that we're having right now. Um, thank you for that question. We have uh one more question uh from the chat. Uh, how do you support high school teachers with embracing literacy best practices, especially at a CTE center where the level of comfort may not be due, may not be there due to altered alternative certification process that they have experienced.

35:58 SPEAKER_01: Yes. So that's a really good question, and that it's a very multi-layered question. Um I think number one that part of the reason that students are in this alternative certification process is because school has not adjusted to best practices in the first place. And that might sound like a little harsh, but in um in school, in most schools in most districts, it's the job of the student to do whatever it takes to make sense of what the teacher is teaching, rather than the teacher making instructional adjustments to support the learning of the student.

36:55 SPEAKER_01: And so the whole movement, for example, of leveled texts, and instead of leveling text, we're leveling students, and then we're already like pigeonholing them into a certain level, which is just all wrong, um, and then not using the practices we know that will help that those students grow as readers. We know we need to build background knowledge, we need to build vocabulary, understanding of sentence structure, um, understanding of genre, uh, decoding skills. It's just all these things, and to be able to pinpoint those, um, that should really be the first look at this kind of situation.

37:46 SPEAKER_01: But I also want to say, yay, for having different opportunities for learning and different opportunities for different certifications, because having those opportunities um really then specialize in giving hope and confidence and a reminder to students that they have something in their future that they can achieve even if it's hard. And so then going back to the question of how do we support high school teachers in embracing literacy best practices, that one is especially challenging because of the fact that high school teachers, sorry, high school teachers, I love you, um, but high school teachers tend to um have a particular agenda and it changes class by class, no matter what grade level it is.

38:52 SPEAKER_01: And it's like my style, whatever my style is, is what you need to adjust to while you're here. And uh oftentimes in literacy, it's about literature and not about like the skills to be a stronger reader. Um, there's often missing nonfiction, which is one of the most helpful things. So those in the special programs, um, I really recommend number one, as a best practice, focusing on informational text in text sets. So that around a particular topic, we might have um a short article, a video, a podcast, an image, a book or a portion of books, all on that same topic.

39:44 SPEAKER_01: And when we read within that same topic and then go back to our lit circles and talk about that, we become stronger and therefore more confident as students. And that kind of best practice um, I think can happen anywhere, and it's one of the easiest moves that educators can make. So that was a very layered question. I hope that I answered it um with detail.

40:12 SPEAKER_00: And you did, you did, and the question did come from um from my uh awesome principal, um who is uh principal of a CTE school. So uh you did cover that topic, and and I want to add to that that when you have teachers who are uncomfortable with anything outside of and and regarding CTE, teachers who they're comfortable with um construction, they are comfortable in their element, they came from industry. That sometimes when it comes down to that piece of of talking about helping our students to to um to read, to be better readers, they may not be comfortable with that because they themselves may not have gotten everything that they needed when they were in school.

41:09 SPEAKER_00: They may have come out of um come out of high school and gone straight into into business, and and maybe reading and and literacy were not, or writing itself was not a strong suit for them. So they they find themselves being uncomfortable, and then here you have leadership coming in and say, okay, we've got to help them to be better readers, and we have to help them with math skills, but we we have to help the teachers with those skills because they are coming through a different way in order to get into education and and becoming certified teachers, they're coming through a different, a different route.

41:49 SPEAKER_00: And so it can be a struggle. And so at you know, leadership has to be able to um energize those teachers and to get them to see and understand that when you when you focus on uh literacy, you focus on that component, that will just help make your program stronger. Because, you know, if you've ever seen the meme where when the elementary teachers they when uh they move when the students move on to middle school, the middle school teachers blame the elementary school teachers for the students not being able to read and write and do arithmetic.

42:30 SPEAKER_00: And then the high school teachers they blame the middle school teachers and just say it's their fault that the students come and they can't read, write, or do uh mathematics. And you've seen the mem across different platforms when it comes to that. And so we have to stop with the blaming game. We have to stop blaming each other. And so high school teachers tend to be the hardest ones uh because they blame middle school and elementary, said, nope, they didn't get it back then, and now you expect me to do it.

42:58 SPEAKER_00: But no matter how they come to you, as as we hear, the the parents they send us the best that they have, that is what they have. They send it send those students to us, and we have to do the best with them. And wherever they come, and and we have to get out of blaming the grade level before us and just teach them where they are. And if that means that we are weak in that area, then we have to pull on, you know, whether it's outside individuals to come in, consultants, or within that that district, you have people within your district that that may be able to uh help those teachers.

43:42 SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes we go and get outside talents before tapping in the inside, but um whatever we need to do by any means necessary, we want to make sure that our our students are are are well when it comes to uh literacy. So um just wanted to share that. Uh share that with um with your answer to uh that question in the chat and thank you for that.

44:05 SPEAKER_01: And we add on to what you just said. Yes, sure. So I also want the teachers that are coming, like you just described, right out of um high school, they might have started a business or become um part of a trade, whatever it might be, um, that they already own and understand the literacy of their subjects because every subject has its own literacy. And so if they're thinking like, okay, um, let's just say an electrician is coming as an educator, um, that electrician is a master of the literacy of that particular profession.

44:49 SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes it's also a matter of confidence for those teachers to realize they already own that. And they had to somehow figure out how to read uh particular uh directions, let's say, or they had to read um articles about say updates in uh LED lighting or I'm just making things up. Um, but they already own that literacy themselves, and it's just a matter of thinking um not how do I teach this, but how did I learn it? And when I learned it that way, let's repeat and give the experience to kids of like almost like a mimicking of how that topic, that profession was learned.

45:39 SPEAKER_00: Thank you, and and I agree that that piece right there. I think I'm gonna use that in our next um professional development, bring out a bunch of manuals uh that are particular for each of those uh different programs, and talk about literacy from that standpoint. So thank you for that idea, um, that because that will definitely help help the teachers to see that yes, you are the master of your trade as well as the master of your learning, and you learned about um different types of nails and screws.

46:17 SPEAKER_00: I think we talked about that in our conversation uh a few weeks ago. That um I didn't know the names of the of different the different nails and screws. I knew what I was looking for when I went into Lowe's, but but just knowing but just the terminology that is specific for that program, that's powerful in because they are um helping the students to be literate in that program, in that content area. So thank you for that. Have just a couple more questions, and then if there are any other questions that come in the chat, uh we'll um go from there.

46:57 SPEAKER_00: So my next question is what do you see as the future of literacy education and how should teachers prepare for it?

47:09 SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the future of literacy education. I would just have to pretend I have a crystal ball because it's likely going to be wrong. Um, because everything in education seems unexpected all the time, except for the fact that we will always need human connection, that every learner needs an adult who will connect with them and remind them that even if things are hard, they are still valued, they still matter, there is a place for them and a route for them that will help them be successful. And so, in all instruction, we need to always have in our future vision that human connection, the most important part.

48:05 SPEAKER_01: As for the rest of literacy, um, I think that the big thing that's gonna start happening, which I don't think we can even imagine the outcomes at this point, is really what comes of AI. Um, it's one of those wonderful and terrifying things all at the same time. Like when I respond, I use Claude most of the time. When I respond to Claude, I always say thank you and please, as if like one day when it takes over, they'll remember I'm a very polite human.

48:46 SPEAKER_01: So but I just I just don't know in terms of literacy, but there will literacy is part of humanities and we will always need the human connection.

49:01 SPEAKER_00: This is true, very true. I agree with that, even though it seems as if we're moving towards more robots and more, you know, machines that could take over education. That was a fear of mine just maybe 10, 15 years ago. But uh that may be a time and it may not be in our time, but I I agree with you that educate educators, people, they make education and that human connection, the human touch, building relationships and rapport with our students, that is what's important. And um I just wanted to um also comment that you know you said about you know saying please and thank you to Claude.

49:52 SPEAKER_00: The movie uh iRobot with Will Smith from you know decades ago. Yes, you know, I still say sometimes that the toaster is going to be standing over the bed one day, and I'm gonna have to do something about that. So I thought that was that was an interesting comment because I'm always talking about the refrigerator taking over or you know, and um, and I have to spell out her name because she's listening, A-L-E-X-A. Always. I'm thinking to myself, should I really keep this? But uh yeah, I I agree with that human connection piece.

50:29 SPEAKER_00: Um, and then in closing, this is a uh our closing question here. What is one message that you hope every educator carries with them after hearing today's conversation?

50:44 SPEAKER_01: I hope that every educator, and we didn't talk about this, but I I want to say one thing, and then I'd like to also then talk about our conversation. I hope every educator prioritizes the time to do something that is a passion of theirs, no matter what it is, uh, that can act as a replenishment. I don't want it to be an expensive thing, like getting like a spas, you know, membership or something like that. Um massages aren't going to do that to us. They're nice. But instead, like look within, find the thing that makes you feel whole or you know, jazzed or curious, um, and build that into your schedule so that you are doing something for you.

51:44 SPEAKER_01: There are so many expectations on teachers today, and I'm just adding one by having saying take care of yourself, and most teachers are like, What? There is always us in there, there's a part of us that has something that we love um to do that fills us up. And I want educators to find that and to schedule it into their lives, even if it's five to ten minutes a week, it's something that will replenish. Um and then from our conversation, uh, I'm hoping that one of the things that we can take away from this conversation is that we don't need a lot of stuff.

52:28 SPEAKER_01: We just need some simple, powerful, and free approaches, um, instructional practices, and human connection to be to have that type of success that we're looking for uh in our students.

52:49 SPEAKER_00: Awesome. This has been a great conversation, and I appreciate you so much for being with us on today. And thank you for joining us for today's episode of The Road to an Effective Classroom Environment. A huge thank you to you, Patty. Thank you so much for coming on today and for sharing your expertise, your passion, and your transformative approach to literacy. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yes, ma'am, thank you. If today's conversation sparked ideas, encouraged growth, or gave you new strategies to try, be sure to subscribe, share this episode with a fellow educator, and leave a review to help more listeners discover the show.

53:38 SPEAKER_00: To learn more about Patty's work, including her book, Not Your Granny's Grammar, check out the links in the episode description. And as always, keep leading with purpose, teaching with passion, and creating classroom environments where every learner thrives. And until next time, this has been Dr. LaConta, also known as the Classy Sassy Consultant. Have an awesome day.